By Lordus Sapiens — I always thought a douche was something that came in a box from Massengill…I guess I was wrong.
As weary as I am of Bret Gordon and his refusal to prove his case, I thought it would be worthwhile to post this exchange that was shared on the BSMA site.
It seems someone named Brandon Hileman got into it with Bret on a forum somewhere (I believe on one of Richard Hackworth’s organization FB pages) regarding questions about the articles on this blog and his martial arts claims. I find a lot of it pretty amusing, but want to draw people’s attention to a couple of things.
First, there are Frank Clay’s comments. Apparently he’s an admin on the page where Brandon and Bret were arguing. What’s interesting about Frank Clay (aside from being a martial arts dipshit in his own right) is that he’s a student of Richard Hackworth (and serves as head of at least one of Hackworth’s fake organizations), who is also Bret’s business partner. Second, are his comments (pictured here) where he attempts to quash the argument by throwing his rank around.
Yeah…coffee shot out of my nose, too…
This behavior is simply indicative of what people like Hackworth, Clay, and Gordon are really all about. Perceived (and fake) status. Their egos and the fact that they have tiny little rice dicks that they are in constant need of compensating for.
The ridiculousness of trying to throw your rank around online aside, the blatant misuse of Korean terms is hilarious. “Sa bum nim” isn’t a bestowed title. It’s just what you call a Korean martial arts teacher ranked fourth dan or higher. “Kwan jang nim” just means “head of school” (not “grandmaster,” like some people want you to believe). “Chun Kwan jang nim?” Well, this is an uncommon one (I think he meant to say “Chong” not “Chun”), but it appears they are using it for the head of the organization. Korean martial arts just don’t use titles the same way Japanese titles do — at least not unless you are in America where you can’t walk down the street without bumping into a martial arts rank and title whore — so there’s nothing to “give up.”
But I love the tone and puffery and all this insisting on public apologies and “I OUT-RANK YOU’s” and other such nonsense. I also love how Bret apparently lets his guard down and starts acting like a self-important douche online…
Fucking hilarious…and totally inappropriate.
Take that shit out on the mat, boys!
Anyway…I found the exchange quite amusing, and revealing. It seems that when Bret feels like he’s in an environment where he thinks he should be showered with respect he can be quite obnoxious. I’ve decided to post it here with the addition of some monkey commentary.
Enjoy…
BH : Would I now…. Interesting assertion. I would say what you did to get where you are is use your proficiency in whatever art you actually hold legitimate rank in to your advantage with excellent marketing and above average intelligence.
You have sparred Sal Polizzi, who I know personally. By his own words you weren’t too impressive, if you’d like I’ll give you the Same offer I do anyone, that we video the entire exchange, you do our 3 hour work out with us and I post it to my page. That is what I tell everyone who wants to fight because their ego is bigger than their fists.
I am a strong advocate of challenge accepting and also of strict record keeping. I don’t condone the issuance of challenges, and beating me up with tkd or HKD or whatever your belt is doesn’t really validate your other rank claims. Just something to think about
Bret G : If you want to be technical, I never actually sparred Sal. We pushed hands a few times, and that’s a rather interesting assertion considering the direct quote I remember as we were pushing hands in the parking lot of the pool hall and he tried to move me was “Fuck you’re rooted. I usually get everyone with that throw.”
I claim nothing that wasn’t awarded to me [or purchased from the WBBB or little Vietnamese Grandmasters none has ever heard of — LS]. Whether you or anyone else agrees with or understands how I was awarded such really means nothing. Don’t believe everything you read on the internet…
I don’t believe I ever actually issued a challenge. My exact words were “work out.” I understand how a challenge could be implied from that, so sure. Consider it one. But it’s not a fitness challenge. It’s a step on the mat and try to shut me up challenge. If you don’t like what I’m wearing or think I don’t deserve it, try to take it off me [which still wouldn’t prove anything…the debate is about facts not skill — LS].
BH : Lmao “I would like to…. Discuss… These issues with you.” Let’s not spar with words here Bret. I’ll be blunt with you, you be blunt with me. I don’t care about your faux rank and I admit that you have some moderate skill, which could come from whatever art you’re actually ranked with that 4th degree, I won’t argue with you about the same arguments you’ve had a million times. And as I said in my message, even if you did best me with some HKD or tkd it in no way validates other claims. I don’t care what you want to believe, what you want to claim is another story and just something to laugh at. Let me ask you this.
If you have legitimate rank in two arts, why is that not enough? What is the necessity to claim so much more in arts that notoriously take a decent time to learn? Is it the influence of your teacher? Is it HIS story that you spread, thinking it will validate your own? I am genuinely curious.
Bret G: There is no story. I have earned exactly what I claim. If you knew anything about my background, or my teacher’s background [Ahhh…the secret, hidden backstory — LS], none of this would be a question
BH: Let’s start from the beginning then. When your teacher, Hatfield, inherited his art, how old was he?
Bret G: He was 23 when Hasaka sensei died and left the art to him. But here’s the thing [I’m reminded of how, back in the day, you could always tell Ron Collins was lying because he would say “But here’s the thing” — LS] Brandon. I don’t answer to you and owe you nothing, especially after the trash you’ve spread for a month now.
BH: Yet here you are, answering to me. As if you can’t resist, it’s an interesting thing isn’t it?
A month? I joined BSMA a week ago, after reading the first article on your teacher, and then the subsequent articles on you.
Bret G:The first article on my teacher was April 6
BH: Indeed it was. I didn’t read it the day it came out, obviously. I read it after seeing you around somewhere, looked up your teachers name, and bam
Bret G:If you want to know who we are and where our art comes from, the same offer applies. Everything is readily available in my school. Pics, documents, scrolls.
BH: Unfortunately I do not read Japanese, only Chinese, and again, I don’t especially care. I’ve seen enough evidence to the contrary to make the conclusion that, at least partially, your extra ranks are meaningless. Like I said, I do believe you hold the two black belts mentioned in the third circle jerk article, which again, means you aren’t unskilled. The rest? How old are you? 34? [Actually, he just turned 28 in March — LS] I’ve been in martial arts long enough to know how long a single first dan should take. It is a numbers game, Bret. This shouldn’t be dishonorable for you.
Bret G: It’s a good thing some of it is in English then. The articles and “evidence” are half assed attempts to discredit us [Trust me, they are fully “assed” — LS]
BH: Some, sure. I’m also not some credential ninja that can immediately tell the correct from the incorrect. I rely on outside sources to do that for me.me. Are they? Why would anyone want to do that? The author seems to have been in the business of “expose” for quite some time. If all his articles were just you and Hatfield, then maybe I could think that
Bret G: If Don and Lordus are your sources, you need to do more research
BH: Don isn’t a source, lordus classifies well enough. Granted that he gives links, photo evidence, as well as opinion.
Bret G: Lordus gives just enough correct information [Haha…that’s an amusing admission, that Gordon admits some of it is “correct’…so which parts and how much? — LS] so that you don’t question anything else in the article. It Is, as I said, a half assed attempt to discredit us. Why would someone do that? I don’t know, boredom? But as I said, I have enough to disprove it. I just don’t care enough to share my entire life’s story online
BH: A point argued ad infinitum.
Bret G: Agreed. If someone would get the balls to come down here already [Still wouldn’t prove anything…full disclosure is the only thing that will prove anything — LS]
BH: Don seems to want to come down
Bret G: He is welcome. The only thing I will not agree to, and was not part of my offer, is to allow him to post that which I will not online If I was going to allow that, why wouldn’t I just share them myself and save the cost of bringing him in? [Exactly…your offer is a dodge, and everyone knows it because it’s a favorite dodge straight out of the fraud playbook — LS]
BH: Which, you realize, defeats the entire purpose. I know your arguments, I’ve read the comments on the articles and have seen Dan’s opinion. It doesn’t matter to me, the only reason I brought this up to frank was because in my mind, if not reality, you are BSing. And I’d rather a friend not get BS’d. I’ve no reservations about what I say, to you or anyone, if someone says I said something then I probably did, is that what you’re taking an issue with here? Exactly Bret…. Exactly.
Bret G: My issue with YOU is your support of such filth [I feel so dirty — LS], and expect to be a member of a group I associate with [Oh? We must all meet Bret Gordon’s standards to be a part of groups he associates with…my, my — LS]. So yes, my issue with you ends with a public apology for what was said I will continue dealing with Lordus and Don
BH: Lol, I don’t expect to be a member of that group, frank brought me in.
Bret G: Speaking of BS lolFrank is the head of the American Jungdokwan Society, right?Ask for a copy of his Jungdokwan certificate…
BH: No idea, don’t speak for him or know his ranks. I didn’t add him because of martial value but of his other areas of expertise, mainly statistical data analysis
Bret G: And yet he claims you as his student
BH: He can call me whatever he likes, I haven’t formally trained with him
Bret G: Good to know considering he’s going around telling everyone you’re a 1st dan under him But I guess that’s to be expected when the head of the American Jungdokwan Society actually has no Jungdokwan rank at all. He is Chung do Kwan and Moo Duk Kwan [Hackworth is the link to “Jungdokwan” which is to say he’s “American Jungdokwan” as much as Gordon and Hatfield are “American Yoshinkan” which is to say it’s all made-up bullshit — LS]
BH: I’ve discussed this handing out of rank with him, that’s not my issue and it isn’t my claim. Frank is an eccentric guy, I told him that I will train with him physically when I can, that’s as far as it goes
Bret G: OH… And if you’re going to believe everything that is on Lordus’s site… Frank is a student of Richard Hackworth. I am sure you read the articles on him.Now, they are also false… But if we’re just going by what’s on Lordus’s site…
BH: You do realize I’ve no idea what any of that means.
And yes, I have. I have also expressed to certain people my reservations about Hackworth. [As you should…I mean, come on, he actually lies to people about how old he is (he tells people he’s in his 60’s but it turns out he’s only 52) on top of his history of selling fake rank and creating fake organizations — LS]
Bret G: Point being. Do not believe everything you read…[Believe it — LS]
BH: I don’t, and that’s not an argument. Like I said, I don’t especially care if Hatfield is a liar, if you are a liar, etc. I laugh at it and that’s about it, spread it to a few of my buddies and have a nice group chuckle, that’s about as deep as it goes
Bret G: Well that group chuckle is my reputation and honor, two things I take very seriously. I am not a liar and will not be known as one
BH: There is an easy way to fix that.But you’ll need to coordinate with ol Don and lordus, not me
Bret G: I will deal with them. [Why don’t I feel like I’m being “dealt with?” — LS] Right now I am talking to you
BH: And you’ll not convince me till the proof is out in the open, as it should be, in the first place.
I guess our impasse is this. Why are you attempting to be “private” when every other place is legitimate? If you are afraid of recreations simply create your own records so you know who is legit under you or not, I’d think restoring your honor would be more important than privacy
Bret G:Those who are important enough to know, know. [This is such self-serving, evasive bullshit — LS]
BH: A convenient excuse, my friend.
Like I said, I don’t care if all your certificates are legit (how many is it now, anyway? 5?) [Way more than 5 — LS] extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, that’s what it comes down to
Bret G: The evidence is on the mat, the information [The “evidence” appears to be a fantasy in your head…prove me wrong by posting your “proof,” that’s the only way you ever get a retraction — LS]
BH : It isn’t. As I’ve explainedIn my very first message
Bret G: So are we stepping on one or not?
BH: Or technically second. Either way, doesn’t matter to me. (END.)
Martial Arts Frauds and Fakes 
The funniest thing to me is, I am a muay Thai guy. I met my teacher through a man called Ed Torres who endorsed him, Ed is a great guy and he has studied muay Thai since he was a teen. In muay we hold no “real” rank. We hold no certificates. We compete in the ring and against other arts. We are about as “real” as it gets, like BJJ or Judo. We have the trophies to prove it, my under classmen took second and first in their first competitive matches against other muay Thai guys. The child students take first repeatedly against other arts, all this is documented, I can show pictures as proof any time. The only certificates we have go to children to congratulate them. But he tried to switch it up on me by calling frank into question. Frank previously worked as a police officer, he is a friend, I don’t care about this organization or that, this certificate or that, etc. It’s classic deflection, attempting to turn the whole thing on me as if in the one claiming 90th degree oompa loompa black belt grandmaster wizard. I’ve worked in bars, as security, Lal around, I don’t go goading people into fights, I will admit that I do love messing with people and that fakes piss me off beyond belief, but shouldn’t it? Shouldn’t that piss you off? Bret wants to fight me, now despite my heavy belief that I would beat the breaks off this faux aiki, point tkd sparring man, like I have said repeatedly even if he does beat me, it DOESN’T prove anything if he beats me with TKD or whatever art it is that he has real rank in. It literally only shows that he had rank in that specific art. I can trace my lineage, prove my lineage, in an art that has no “real” rank. I find it hard to believe that Bret shouldn’t be able to do the same.
Oh…. And I have other challenge videos of people wanting to spar me saying they’ll kick my ass. Only one person has ever shown up, Bret. Would you really want to stake your reputation (whatever that happens to be.) on a match that will include elbows, knees, clinching, throws, just about everything under the sun? What if you lose? Does that prove you aren’t legitimate? Something to thing about…..
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Bret doesn’t seem to understand that you can’t have it both ways to suit yourself when you’re caught in a lie. He goes to great pains to convince people he is part of a lineage, but then he says it doesn’t matter when he gets called out and refuses to provide proof of his claims. So which is it? Which sword do you fall on? If the mat is what matters, don’t make lineage claims. If lineage matters, put up your proof and stop deflecting by trying to draw people out on the mat. He’s responsible for the question being posed…he posted all these elaborate claims, so he has to answer for it. Nothing that could happen on the mat would prove his claims..only verifiable documentation will. That’s the bed HE made…no one else.
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I agree. And as I told him, what is so bad about holding 2 high-is ranking black belt? Why is that enough? He is two years older than me and expects me to believe he has 5+ (don’t know exact numbers) high Ranking black belts, is a GM, inheritors of some made up art etc? I don’t see the necessity of it. If it were me? I’d be happy with that 4th degree or whatever it is. It is an odd psychological concept.
And to be completely fair, I don’t really care about this Hasaka character, I was just watching a buddies back. There is a reason frank is close to Hatfield that I will leave to frank to explain. That’s not my place.
My DMs are still open to you Bret. I hope you realize that we really are only trying to help you. Just like the bullshido guys who tried to set you straight in 2008. I know it is hard, but the fact remains. The burden of proof is on you and your teacher Hatfield. I can show you my training videos, pictures, the competition pictures of my teammates, I can get you in contact with Ed, is it bad for us to ask for the same respect if you are as you claim? I sense the dissonance. It really is hard to break out of it, but it isn’t too late. You aren’t too old to be stuck in your ways. Just my opinion man.
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If Bret flushed all this paper down the toilet and just trained and taught the way he claims he does, he might actually be deserving of some legitimate status in about 22 years when he turns 50. He wanted to be a 4th dan master when he was 14-15, now he wants to be a grandmaster when he’s isn’t even 30. It’s a weird narcissism that these guys never get over.
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Personally, I just hope he does attempt to fix himself. That’s really my goal here. I believe people can change and like I told him, he is still young. Nothing is set in stone yet. I know many people like him and I know that generally they don’t even have as much “real” training as he does. His cert from Chad Love and the other one should be fine for him. He is training with other martial artists, I can’t say they are good or not as I haven’t seen their videos or touched hands with them. But he is training with BJJ guys, Daito Ryu guys, and so on. I fully believe if he put his mind to it that he could, eventually, get at least SOME of the ranks he is claiming… Keep up the good work Lordus.
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Good luck…a lot of people tried to fix Ron Collins, and he ended up letting his narcissism and mental illness take him to prison. I don’t think that’s in Bret’s future, but he’s been like this his entire adult life…the Bullshido stuff when he was a teen to now all he’s done is worked on being a more polished fraud, it seems. I would love it if he post his proof and humiliated me…then I could retire from blogging in shame.
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